i reposted a note from sarah and amanda’s essay and got like 12 horrendous replies from random men. it’s so weird, i’ve been on substack for 2+ years now and i miss how it used to be
Definitely agree with a lot written here. Writing for sure is hard, and there will always be that temptation to just do whatever is gaining traction, because we're not here just creating, really, we're here to garner some sort of attention, and that will always skew the creative process, sadly but probably inevitably.
Major agree on the 'do not engage' advice. No troll or troglodyte has ever been turned around by logical argument, and even less have they been dissuaded by a sufficiently scarring burn. The block button is your friend and that's all there is to it.
I came here looking for a place to speak openly because Instagram has been turning into The New Twitter, and it has been grueling during this last year, especially for anyone commenting on the, ahem, political situation, if you know what I mean. The number of posts I have had taken down, and 24 h/ 7 day bans I have endured during the last year is a little ridiculous considering I try to stick to facts and moreover do so pretty politely. But that's the danger of having a reporting system that apparently counts hurt feelings, people can just report you out of existence, and you can pontificate to yourself about how it wasn't really fair.
In that sense I am exceptionally wary of calling for censorship and removal of things We Don't Like. Obviously inappropriate and menacing comments are a whole different thing, especially to DMs, which should really be prohibitable somehow. But if someone wants to write a batshit Substack on how they feel we women all suck for whatever reason, I'm not sure I want to see that censored. I certainly want US to have room to write about how all men suck, if that is our stance. So I don't really see how we can forbid one but not the other.
oh you nailed this!! i always love to read when you write about the inner-workings of substack and social medias because i feel like your voice just translates so well and you provide so much depth to the situations. i’m so glad you wrote this, you spoke life into feelings that have only been ruminating in my head for a while, and you did it so well!!
This is was the best piece ever written about the recent situation. I feel like I won’t say anything about it anymore, because you ‘diagnosed’ the situation perfectly. It’s a clear picture of everything that has been going on, and I couldn’t be happier because you wrote this. It’s almost like a gift to fellow writers lol!
I’ll definitely come back and read this again, because you said everything that i’ve been desperately wanting to say for a long time. thank you for helping all of us! I don’t think I even have to tell you how well written this was, you know that you absolutely nail everything that you do. Thank youuu!!!!!! Seriously, thank you a million times 🥹🫶🏻
i appreciate that,—was very much trying to walk the line between not wading into anything that would make any of the situations any worse while trying to figure out what exactly makes these encounters different from encounters w the same sorta people on say twitter. idk really but here’s a guess at least lol.
This was great. I often find myself playing the numbers game or the comparison game on this platform. But at the same time, I fear what will happen if the wrong readers find my work. I try to remind myself that I don’t want every reader - I want to find my readers here. And it’s cool if that’s not thousands and thousands of readers! Anyways - always enjoy your work ✨🫶🏻
this is so true! It's hard to cast that wide net to try and reach an audience but not randomly end up catching people who do not align with you at all.
"You don’t need to debate people in the comments. You really don’t." Wise words, and a really wise and interesting essay, thanks. So far I've found Substack really positive and supportive – I've read some brilliant writing, been encouraged with my own writing, found a definite sense of community. I know from chatting with younger women that their experience is sometimes different. Especially if they dare to debate. Your writing here on the way Substack is evolving really helps put it in context. Thanks.
And some especially "visible" writers here deliberately incite those wars, to juice their engagement stats and, hopefully, to attract the notice and support of even- more-visible writers, raising their personal stock among their peers. The trolls, meanwhile, are easier to suss out; they're just atoms in the mass of the "invisible" that want to become visible, if only briefly, to the visible inciters. It's a squalid symbiosis, you could say; or a worn-in ritual of performance.
All this talk about how Substack used to be is pretty sad - it makes me feel like I missed the boat as someone who jumped on this month, only to find a bunch of articles talking about how it’s changed for the worst.
I really appreciate your recommendation to not engage. I feel like somewhere over the course of the internet, “don’t feed the trolls” fell out of the popular understanding. There is no amount of pithy comebacks or clever quips that will stop these kinds of people from making more disgusting comments, and they are willing to go lower than you ever could.
yeah from what i've heard a lot of these goons (who were jumping into these comments for a second here last night blasting the N word before I deleted their comments) are transplants from political iFunny, something I just learned existed just recently, something as deeply strange as it is lowkey kinda pathetic. They've got their little community on substack like we do, but they come out of the shadows to stir shit up and it's quite annoying but oh well. Pretty easy to just kick them out.
And don't worry! You didn't miss the boat. The substack of a couple months ago is still here, it's just that the number of people on the website has increased and we now have to reckon with the fact that there's annoyingass trolls lurking about.
Great post, as always. Love to see Octavia Butler recommended. Her work is so fucking good. I'd also suggest Le Guin, personally, as she and Butler are like genuine masters of the craft. I'm not really a member of any substack community in the same way as you guys all are or seem to be, so I've mostly been reading about the drama from the outside looking in. Nobody should be subjected to abuse in their comments or dm's. I really don't like when people are assholes, but at the same time I always worry that I'm going to sound rude or come off like an asshole when I awkwardly try to engage with posts and newsletters that I enjoy. I don't think anybody would actually mistake my awkwardness for Incelius Prime's shit post trolling, but I still worry that something I say won't read right since it can be difficult to convey tone and intent. I'll give an example, I read a really long note that I enjoyed from an account I hadn't really interacted with. It was insightful and just an all around great read, but in it they mentioned something "not really being the right word" for a concept. I had just learned a new word that I thought would fit really well, "axiological," so I commented and told them I enjoyed the post and asked if that word would fit, but then just felt like a total ass because even though I was sharing the word in good faith because I was excited to have just learned it and really enjoyed what they had written, I could absolutely see how suggesting it might come across condescending or something. Condescending isn't quite right, but like rude in some way. Without the tonal markers and context clues of interacting with someone in person it's hard to convey positivity and excitement and the like. Would it have been better if I hadn't responded, or even written this comment that I'm currently writing? I don't know. Maybe? I'm an internet stranger interacting with people I don't know, and it's safe to assume they might not care to interact with me. Also, regardless of what my intent is, if I make someone feel bad or uncomfortable then that's a problem. It's also something I'd like to correct, so while I think ignoring is a good solution for the people who seem motivated by hate, I think maybe there are edge cases too? I don't know. Sorry for leaving such a long comment.
Oh absolutely no worries leaving a long comment! Just takes me a little longer to respond, you know how it goes.
Toni Morrison, Octavia Butler and K Le Guin are like the holy trinity of progressive Science Fiction writers of the late twentieth century. They're so so fire.
And with your point about that comment,—it's an interesting thought to dig into... Just like the ways in which we worry about our words spoken out loud, we worry about how we come off in terms of internet speak. Online communication is a funny mediu,—like right now it's just my profile picture speaking these words to you, except in a voice that's not mine and only ever going to be yours. Reading your post too, I didn't read it in any voice but my own.
With that in mind, the ways in which you deal with the voices you encounter online seems almost to be an extension of how you treat the voices in your own head,—and I suppose the inverse is true also, as your voice in your own head is affected by the voices that you let into it.
I think, too, that the forum of your comment is important, right? LIke when responding to a substack post in the comments, feel free to get as long and verbose as you want! If you were responding to an instagram post, though, it would be out of place and somewhat offputting like a man who starts freestyle rapping on the subway. There are places for making fun of online assholes too, I'd agree,—but those places are twitter and not probably Substack (at least in my view of things).
Just subscribed! I’m finding the challenge of writing what I think is good/interesting/informative compared to what I know will trend on here extremely difficult. But this reminded me to remain authentic, as well as to be mindful about the pitfalls that come with writing for popularity rather than personal gratification.
Yeah there's an interesting contradiction in what trends and what's actually good/beneficial. We'll see how things develop. I'm still long on this place, I think it'll stick around as a good hangout spot for a couple years at the very least.
Briffin you touch on so many important points that I'm afraid that I won't be able to remember them all.
What makes Substack cool is that we not only hold ownership over an audience (we own our email list and subscriber relationships), but are also able to enjoy the network effects the algorithm provides. That these two things could exist in harmony, back when I joined in January, seemed like a miracle.
Over this past year, we’ve watched Substack incrementally grow the social side of their platform. It started with Recommendations, then Direct Messaging, then Notes, and Reels, and now Live Chat? Of course, we’ve complained, but ultimately, we’ve accepted it all as "the natural course of things", convincing ourselves that the pros outweigh the cons, and that not everything in this world can be perfect. I hope we don’t become complacent (though I cannot imagine you becoming complacent, of all people) and that we keep fighting for what’s right and continue to amplify voices. Individual experiences can be brushed over, but strength in numbers and community can overcome it.
At the same time, I wonder if Substack will continue building out the social side while neglecting their bread and butter: building writer x audience relationships. Admittedly, I don't really keep up with the newsletters I’m subscribed to and I don't engage in Notes. Maybe I’m in the minority. But if things continue in the social direction, the logical next step would probably be ads, bots, etc…
The real power of this place as compared to other socials is the intimacy of communication. I've long said I believe Substack is more of a ~curation~ platform than it is a ~writing~ platform. Like, Microsoft Word is a writing platform, not Substack,—Substack's more of a place in my eyes to curate experiences and recommendations through the lens of an email newsletter format. But like you say, that's changing as the company steers more towards the social direction. I think this started around January of last year when it occured to them that they could compete with Twitter as it began its voyage into its night, but like you said: there were some good pros and cons to the balancing act they were doing.
And just to push back a small bit, I don't think that leaning into the social side of things is really that bad of a move. Substack is still a great place to hang out with your friends online, to read interesting newsletters on your commute to work, it just so happens that there's some weirdos lurking around here too intent on stirring shit up. The dream for a new and better internet is still here, just there's more to it than that.
I like that perspective. I do feel more in control of my feed and can more clearly state what I like and don’t like to read and see on this platform, which I admit I can’t do on other socials lol
And there's literally so much more on my mind and I'll probably end up writing a post on it, but the solution COULD BE be to paywall everything so the only people who can comment and engage with your work would be those who are actually willing to contribute meaningfully to the conversation. But then that incentivizes an internet that requires payment to view anything (now we're really venturing into the world of blockchain and micro-transactions, spoooooky), which, quite frankly, I'm not entirely opposed to? it'd just be a huge shift from the internet we've grown up with
Yeah I think that's the key: accepting the internet we're used to is dying if not already dead. It's not the worst thing, but it'll just take some getting used to. I think a lot of people online are starting to panic about this shift in part because they've built their whole personalities around short-form snark lol
i reposted a note from sarah and amanda’s essay and got like 12 horrendous replies from random men. it’s so weird, i’ve been on substack for 2+ years now and i miss how it used to be
yeah that sucks sm like it’s so weird how incensed they get
I love writing about writing and you did a great job
writing about writing about writing about writing lol
Definitely agree with a lot written here. Writing for sure is hard, and there will always be that temptation to just do whatever is gaining traction, because we're not here just creating, really, we're here to garner some sort of attention, and that will always skew the creative process, sadly but probably inevitably.
Major agree on the 'do not engage' advice. No troll or troglodyte has ever been turned around by logical argument, and even less have they been dissuaded by a sufficiently scarring burn. The block button is your friend and that's all there is to it.
I came here looking for a place to speak openly because Instagram has been turning into The New Twitter, and it has been grueling during this last year, especially for anyone commenting on the, ahem, political situation, if you know what I mean. The number of posts I have had taken down, and 24 h/ 7 day bans I have endured during the last year is a little ridiculous considering I try to stick to facts and moreover do so pretty politely. But that's the danger of having a reporting system that apparently counts hurt feelings, people can just report you out of existence, and you can pontificate to yourself about how it wasn't really fair.
In that sense I am exceptionally wary of calling for censorship and removal of things We Don't Like. Obviously inappropriate and menacing comments are a whole different thing, especially to DMs, which should really be prohibitable somehow. But if someone wants to write a batshit Substack on how they feel we women all suck for whatever reason, I'm not sure I want to see that censored. I certainly want US to have room to write about how all men suck, if that is our stance. So I don't really see how we can forbid one but not the other.
Your echoing name at the end: all I could see was riffin riffin riffin like a guitar and. just. yes.
oh absolutely, riffing and writing,—not too different imo
This is awesome
yoo thanks for being the franz ferdinand of the first big substack flame war lol
oh you nailed this!! i always love to read when you write about the inner-workings of substack and social medias because i feel like your voice just translates so well and you provide so much depth to the situations. i’m so glad you wrote this, you spoke life into feelings that have only been ruminating in my head for a while, and you did it so well!!
thanks sm i’ve been ruminating on a lot of it too haha
Griffin!!
This is was the best piece ever written about the recent situation. I feel like I won’t say anything about it anymore, because you ‘diagnosed’ the situation perfectly. It’s a clear picture of everything that has been going on, and I couldn’t be happier because you wrote this. It’s almost like a gift to fellow writers lol!
I’ll definitely come back and read this again, because you said everything that i’ve been desperately wanting to say for a long time. thank you for helping all of us! I don’t think I even have to tell you how well written this was, you know that you absolutely nail everything that you do. Thank youuu!!!!!! Seriously, thank you a million times 🥹🫶🏻
omg thanks sm Amanda!!
i appreciate that,—was very much trying to walk the line between not wading into anything that would make any of the situations any worse while trying to figure out what exactly makes these encounters different from encounters w the same sorta people on say twitter. idk really but here’s a guess at least lol.
Hope you’re doing well!
This was great. I often find myself playing the numbers game or the comparison game on this platform. But at the same time, I fear what will happen if the wrong readers find my work. I try to remind myself that I don’t want every reader - I want to find my readers here. And it’s cool if that’s not thousands and thousands of readers! Anyways - always enjoy your work ✨🫶🏻
this is so true! It's hard to cast that wide net to try and reach an audience but not randomly end up catching people who do not align with you at all.
absolutely agreed, yeah—slow incremental community building is kinda the key i think
"You don’t need to debate people in the comments. You really don’t." Wise words, and a really wise and interesting essay, thanks. So far I've found Substack really positive and supportive – I've read some brilliant writing, been encouraged with my own writing, found a definite sense of community. I know from chatting with younger women that their experience is sometimes different. Especially if they dare to debate. Your writing here on the way Substack is evolving really helps put it in context. Thanks.
Hey of course! It’s an interesting hodgepodge around these parts
wtf is demure fall LOL
i don’t even know lol my friend ty had to fill me in
Inciting flame wars is harder than writing
And some especially "visible" writers here deliberately incite those wars, to juice their engagement stats and, hopefully, to attract the notice and support of even- more-visible writers, raising their personal stock among their peers. The trolls, meanwhile, are easier to suss out; they're just atoms in the mass of the "invisible" that want to become visible, if only briefly, to the visible inciters. It's a squalid symbiosis, you could say; or a worn-in ritual of performance.
Feelings will always be more true than information 🩷
In your reality, yes it is true.
💛
All this talk about how Substack used to be is pretty sad - it makes me feel like I missed the boat as someone who jumped on this month, only to find a bunch of articles talking about how it’s changed for the worst.
I really appreciate your recommendation to not engage. I feel like somewhere over the course of the internet, “don’t feed the trolls” fell out of the popular understanding. There is no amount of pithy comebacks or clever quips that will stop these kinds of people from making more disgusting comments, and they are willing to go lower than you ever could.
yeah from what i've heard a lot of these goons (who were jumping into these comments for a second here last night blasting the N word before I deleted their comments) are transplants from political iFunny, something I just learned existed just recently, something as deeply strange as it is lowkey kinda pathetic. They've got their little community on substack like we do, but they come out of the shadows to stir shit up and it's quite annoying but oh well. Pretty easy to just kick them out.
And don't worry! You didn't miss the boat. The substack of a couple months ago is still here, it's just that the number of people on the website has increased and we now have to reckon with the fact that there's annoyingass trolls lurking about.
Great post, as always. Love to see Octavia Butler recommended. Her work is so fucking good. I'd also suggest Le Guin, personally, as she and Butler are like genuine masters of the craft. I'm not really a member of any substack community in the same way as you guys all are or seem to be, so I've mostly been reading about the drama from the outside looking in. Nobody should be subjected to abuse in their comments or dm's. I really don't like when people are assholes, but at the same time I always worry that I'm going to sound rude or come off like an asshole when I awkwardly try to engage with posts and newsletters that I enjoy. I don't think anybody would actually mistake my awkwardness for Incelius Prime's shit post trolling, but I still worry that something I say won't read right since it can be difficult to convey tone and intent. I'll give an example, I read a really long note that I enjoyed from an account I hadn't really interacted with. It was insightful and just an all around great read, but in it they mentioned something "not really being the right word" for a concept. I had just learned a new word that I thought would fit really well, "axiological," so I commented and told them I enjoyed the post and asked if that word would fit, but then just felt like a total ass because even though I was sharing the word in good faith because I was excited to have just learned it and really enjoyed what they had written, I could absolutely see how suggesting it might come across condescending or something. Condescending isn't quite right, but like rude in some way. Without the tonal markers and context clues of interacting with someone in person it's hard to convey positivity and excitement and the like. Would it have been better if I hadn't responded, or even written this comment that I'm currently writing? I don't know. Maybe? I'm an internet stranger interacting with people I don't know, and it's safe to assume they might not care to interact with me. Also, regardless of what my intent is, if I make someone feel bad or uncomfortable then that's a problem. It's also something I'd like to correct, so while I think ignoring is a good solution for the people who seem motivated by hate, I think maybe there are edge cases too? I don't know. Sorry for leaving such a long comment.
Oh absolutely no worries leaving a long comment! Just takes me a little longer to respond, you know how it goes.
Toni Morrison, Octavia Butler and K Le Guin are like the holy trinity of progressive Science Fiction writers of the late twentieth century. They're so so fire.
And with your point about that comment,—it's an interesting thought to dig into... Just like the ways in which we worry about our words spoken out loud, we worry about how we come off in terms of internet speak. Online communication is a funny mediu,—like right now it's just my profile picture speaking these words to you, except in a voice that's not mine and only ever going to be yours. Reading your post too, I didn't read it in any voice but my own.
With that in mind, the ways in which you deal with the voices you encounter online seems almost to be an extension of how you treat the voices in your own head,—and I suppose the inverse is true also, as your voice in your own head is affected by the voices that you let into it.
I think, too, that the forum of your comment is important, right? LIke when responding to a substack post in the comments, feel free to get as long and verbose as you want! If you were responding to an instagram post, though, it would be out of place and somewhat offputting like a man who starts freestyle rapping on the subway. There are places for making fun of online assholes too, I'd agree,—but those places are twitter and not probably Substack (at least in my view of things).
Just subscribed! I’m finding the challenge of writing what I think is good/interesting/informative compared to what I know will trend on here extremely difficult. But this reminded me to remain authentic, as well as to be mindful about the pitfalls that come with writing for popularity rather than personal gratification.
Yeah there's an interesting contradiction in what trends and what's actually good/beneficial. We'll see how things develop. I'm still long on this place, I think it'll stick around as a good hangout spot for a couple years at the very least.
Briffin you touch on so many important points that I'm afraid that I won't be able to remember them all.
What makes Substack cool is that we not only hold ownership over an audience (we own our email list and subscriber relationships), but are also able to enjoy the network effects the algorithm provides. That these two things could exist in harmony, back when I joined in January, seemed like a miracle.
Over this past year, we’ve watched Substack incrementally grow the social side of their platform. It started with Recommendations, then Direct Messaging, then Notes, and Reels, and now Live Chat? Of course, we’ve complained, but ultimately, we’ve accepted it all as "the natural course of things", convincing ourselves that the pros outweigh the cons, and that not everything in this world can be perfect. I hope we don’t become complacent (though I cannot imagine you becoming complacent, of all people) and that we keep fighting for what’s right and continue to amplify voices. Individual experiences can be brushed over, but strength in numbers and community can overcome it.
At the same time, I wonder if Substack will continue building out the social side while neglecting their bread and butter: building writer x audience relationships. Admittedly, I don't really keep up with the newsletters I’m subscribed to and I don't engage in Notes. Maybe I’m in the minority. But if things continue in the social direction, the logical next step would probably be ads, bots, etc…
I agree with these points.
The real power of this place as compared to other socials is the intimacy of communication. I've long said I believe Substack is more of a ~curation~ platform than it is a ~writing~ platform. Like, Microsoft Word is a writing platform, not Substack,—Substack's more of a place in my eyes to curate experiences and recommendations through the lens of an email newsletter format. But like you say, that's changing as the company steers more towards the social direction. I think this started around January of last year when it occured to them that they could compete with Twitter as it began its voyage into its night, but like you said: there were some good pros and cons to the balancing act they were doing.
And just to push back a small bit, I don't think that leaning into the social side of things is really that bad of a move. Substack is still a great place to hang out with your friends online, to read interesting newsletters on your commute to work, it just so happens that there's some weirdos lurking around here too intent on stirring shit up. The dream for a new and better internet is still here, just there's more to it than that.
I like that perspective. I do feel more in control of my feed and can more clearly state what I like and don’t like to read and see on this platform, which I admit I can’t do on other socials lol
And there's literally so much more on my mind and I'll probably end up writing a post on it, but the solution COULD BE be to paywall everything so the only people who can comment and engage with your work would be those who are actually willing to contribute meaningfully to the conversation. But then that incentivizes an internet that requires payment to view anything (now we're really venturing into the world of blockchain and micro-transactions, spoooooky), which, quite frankly, I'm not entirely opposed to? it'd just be a huge shift from the internet we've grown up with
Yeah I think that's the key: accepting the internet we're used to is dying if not already dead. It's not the worst thing, but it'll just take some getting used to. I think a lot of people online are starting to panic about this shift in part because they've built their whole personalities around short-form snark lol